How Do You Solve a Problem Like Ex-Vegans?*
Button from Food Fight!
We try to ignore them. We know they’re there, but they create such frustration and anger and disillusionment that we try not to think too much of them. But now and then, they show up, indignant and self-righteous and defensive, and you have to acknowledge their existence: the ex-vegans.
Right here on this blog yesterday, I was dropping my jaw and shaking my head at someone who, just a couple months ago, wrote supportively in response to my arguments in the post “Stop the Fight Against Factory Farming, Save the Animal Rights Movement,” but who now has resurfaced as an anti-vegan ex-vegan (for example, fellow vegans, did you know that veganism is “shallow and vapid” and with “no philosophy”?). I was in the middle of trying to figure out whether the commenter’s remarks were serious or some kind of prank when elsewhere, I saw friend Chad Miller of Food Fight! Grocery and Let Live refer briefly to the frustration of angry ex-vegans too.
The conversation extended into how offended some people were by Food Fight’s “Never Trust an Ex-Vegan” design, and Chad asked, “Do you think folks would get as mad at us if we made ‘Never Trust an Ex Anti Racist’ button? Would that be ‘elitist’ or too intolerant of how people wanna live their lives?” Indeed.
I do believe there are different categories of ex-vegans — for example, (1) those who stop being vegan for blatantly selfish reasons, who simply like the taste and convenience of flesh and dairy and eggs and who come up with lots of loud and self-serving but easily dismantled arguments for why they “had” to, or were justified to, start eating animals again, (2) those who didn’t have the best information and support when first going vegan and thus struggled with it or who were sincerely swayed by the people and groups perpetuating the humane myth, and (3) those who truly, deeply wanted to be vegan but who are among the supremely rare individuals who can’t be totally vegan and be healthy. (And when I say “supremely rare,” I really do mean rare — consider Matt, husband of Natala of Vegan Hope, for example, if you want proof that even someone on an intensely restricted diet can still manage to be vegan or at least come very close with some effort, if the will is there. Most people who try to go vegan and then insist they couldn’t stay healthy find themselves unhealthy simply because of lack of knowledge and healthy eating habits.) People in difficult circumstances who want to but can’t remain totally vegan for other reasons, beyond their control, I don’t put into the “ex-vegan” category. As has been discussed in the past, I’ve no interest in faulting and shaming people for situations that are truly out of their control or prohibitive.
But ex-vegans in that first category are the ones we encounter most as vegans, and some of them can be loud and obnoxious about it. And I think the Food Fight! design sums up succintly one of the feelings that many animal rights advocates have about them. Let’s be clear: an ex-vegan is different from, for example, an ex-Christian or an ex-Muslim or an ex-Democrat or an ex-Republican or, hell, even an ex-gay (whole…other…post). This isn’t a matter of distrusting someone or feeling betrayed by or angry at someone because he or she has left a religion or a mindset or an identity or just any way of living — it’s about a return to violence, to exploitation, to torture, to suffering, to killing; it’s about a decision with real-life consequences for real-life victims. It has far more in common with going from peace activist to subway bomber or, as Chad says, from social justice activist to virulent racist than it has in common with leaving a religion. Veganism isn’t a religion. It’s a social justice movement. It’s a way of living. And it’s not about us. It’s about them — the ones we can choose to torture and kill unnecessarily or choose to respect and advocate for.
Give me the average omnivore on the street who thinks veganism is “extreme” and who knows little to nothing about nonhuman animals and animal agriculture, or give me a farming family, and I may have to take deep breaths at moments, but for the most part, I’ll manage to keep my cool even in trying moments – because I know that such people don’t yet see and know what I see and know or that they haven’t had that lightbulb moment yet. I can see potential in them. I can see past their snide remarks or indifferent attitudes and see the compassion waiting to be tapped, the goodness in them that comes out in other ways, for other beings. Even give me the quiet ex-vegans, and I’ll recognize that quietness as discomfort with their choices, as a sign that with some time, compassion, and encouragement, they’ll come back around to aligning their behaviors with their values.
But I’ve noticed in myself that my patience for vocal (or snide) anti-vegan ex-vegans is almost nonexistent — and if I’m going to be honest, I have to admit that neither do I have the greatest supply of patience with non-vocal but unabashed ex-vegans (e.g., the ones who don’t really talk about not being vegan anymore or who even retain the label but who unapologetically add dairy and eggs back into their diet — not slip up and backslide for a little, but go back completely, with no plans or attempts to really stop eating them again). And the patience is thin because I know that so many of them know.
That’s what I struggle with. How do you know what we know, how do you see what we’ve seen, how do you see the faces and read and hear the stories, how do you have that world-shifting lightbulb moment and yet still go back not only to being a part of that system, but even to loudly championing and advocating your decision? How do you justify it? How do you take bite after bite, knowing there’s a who there; how do you stop your mind from filling with the images and sounds that you know about — the fear; the cries; the pain, physical and emotional both; the final violent moments – that were required for you to have that bite? Or if you can not only go back but also boldly defend the decision and advocate that others do the same, is that an indication that you never had that world-shifting moment in the first place?
So I struggle with vocal ex-vegans, with the positions they take both personally and out in the world, setting us back. But I also struggle with what I perceive to be the atmosphere in the animal rights movement that is conducive to creating ex-vegans (and ex-vegetarians) — we had this conversation in my “Factory Farming” post and in Mary’s compelling post “Confessions of an Ex- Ex-Vegan.” And though I know that letting anger bubble up and over and into written words doesn’t always help, and that I should keep calm and stick to the arguments and positions I know to be valid and justifiable and compassionate and logical, I still struggle to pull back from that instinct of anger.
I don’t have a neat conclusion for this post, just as I have no neat solution to this issue. So your turn: what’s your take on ex-vegans? And what’s your approach, both with them and in response to them when they’re out there in the world, using their “ex-vegan” status as a platform from which to argue against veganism and animal rights?
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* “How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria?” from The Sound of Music is one of multiple songs that have been stuck in my head off and on for more than TWO DECADES. Now it can be stuck in your head today. You’re welcome.
**Before I could publish this, commenter Amy Clare weighed in on this topic on the previous post’s comment thread. We disagree a little, in that I don’t agree that there’s truly only one reason people stop being vegan, as noted early in this post, but her thoughtful remarks are worth considering. I’m including them here:
There’s only really one reason why vegans become ex-vegans. They simply fancy eating some meat and/or dairy – perhaps with peer pressure to do so from omnis – and this desire ends up more important than their principles. It’s safe to give in to it, because the world around us is a meat-eater’s world which will fall over itself to tell them that they’re doing nothing wrong.
Their thoughts may go something like this: “What if those omnis are right? If they’re right, then I can have what I want!” Therefore the omni arguments *become* right, in the ex-vegan’s mind, as this is the only way the desire can be fulfilled. And there is certainly no shortage of meat-apologists around to reinforce those arguments, to reassure the anxious ex-vegan that eating meat is fine, it’s ‘natural’.
If any dissonance, any concern for animals remains, new attitudes need to be formed to eliminate this, because it is uncomfortable and may lead to the ex-vegan being guilted back into veganism and not getting what they want. Hence, ‘anti-vegan’ views. Hence defensiveness. Hence strange claims that eating animals is somehow good for them.
I know all this because I’ve lapsed once or twice myself, many years ago. Each time I had excuses at the ready – although I never claimed that eating animals was good for their interests, I did fall for the ‘humane meat’ myth – and plenty of people around me who happily fed me meat and discussed how fine and natural it all was with me. It was very easy for me not to face up to what I was doing.
But I eventually had to realise the fact that my behaviour was simply selfish, that I was a person who cared about animals and as such there was only really one diet that I could choose which fit in with that stance. So back to veganism I went, and this time, I have had the mental strength to stick to it – as I know that whatever fleeting desire I might have for cheese, etc, there is an animal on the other end of that production line who would suffer greatly to meet that fleeting desire. And they are more important.
Stephanie Ernst
Marji
Kelly G.
Deb
Mary Martin
Nice post, as always.
I, too, am driven up the wall by vocal ex-vegans (wrote about it a few years ago over here: http://www.vegblog.org/archive/2007/03/29/tips-for-new-vegans-dealing-with-ex-vegans/ — of course there are plenty of militant ex-vegans that show up in the comment section… read and watch your blood pressure soar)
My wife’s been bumping into them a lot recently, for whatever reason. She’ll come home and tell me about someone who “used to be vegan” and it usually requires medical intervention to unroll my eyes from the back of my head. Like you said, it’s one thing if someone blackslid or has some esoteric medical issue, but if they don’t only consciously make the decision but then speak out against being vegan? I have zero patience.
What to do, what to do.
Just wanted to chime in – my husband Matt has now reversed most of his allergies :) he now eats many raw foods. He was once told that he would have to only eat meat/dairy/eggs and bread to survive. We had to work hard, but it was completely worth it – not only was he able to go Vegan 9 months ago he was able to heal the problems that were caused by the diet he was eating before becoming vegan.
I just finished my classes in plant based nutrition and have a greater understanding of how our brains work. For most, meat/dairy/eggs are simply addictions. It is like a smoker quitting, and being around people who smoke, and if they even have just one cigarette all of those old responses kick back into gear, and they are smoking again. (If you haven’t read “The Pleasure Trap” I highly suggest it). I think for many, the slip back in is generally something innocent they will just eat dairy when they are out, or they will only eat meat when they are at their mother’s house. But it can’t stop there because of a lot of other things going on with our brain chemistry. I would say this is even more so for people who have strong food addictions (I used to be 415 pounds, I know all about food addictions).
At that point – I think is when the justifications start to happen. People rationalize their poor choices by making excuses for themselves. “I must have needed meat because when I ate it my body craved it again” or they will only eat organic meat, that is surely more healthy and better for the animals. (On that note, Dr.Campbell in all of his studies showing the undeniable link between animal protein and cancer – the animal protein was not from factory farmed animals – it was from the ‘cleanest’ animal protein and most of his studies started before factory farms were even around).
And then the cycle just continues. The truth is, in order to eat animal’s again people must find tons of justifications. They look for anyone to confirm their desires to eat the things that they want to eat. They do this to the point that they believe that they are the ones making that decision and they will fight, get angry, and justify – just like an addict does.
I have only met a handful of people who have very rare health problems in which they had to consume animal protein (and all of those people had tried very hard to become completely vegan). For most though, it is a choice, and often a choice they do not want to own.
“At that point – I think is when the justifications start to happen. People rationalize their poor choices by making excuses for themselves. “I must have needed meat because when I ate it my body craved it again” or they will only eat organic meat, that is surely more healthy and better for the animals. (On that note, Dr.Campbell in all of his studies showing the undeniable link between animal protein and cancer – the animal protein was not from factory farmed animals – it was from the ‘cleanest’ animal protein and most of his studies started before factory farms were even around). ”
Right…”The China Study”. Which is an odd title. since China eats a lot of meat. Chicken, beef, pork, fish – all these animal meats that you claim cause cancer naturally. China might not be big on dairy, but big on eating tofu, but most people there are not vegetarians and love meat.
Stancel,
You’ve done it. A refutation of “The China Study” in a meager four lines. Why haven’t the critics applied that bullet-proof logic?
So what’s the possibility that these “ex-vegans” were only vegan because of the “fringe” status — Hooray! We’ve finally reached tipping point! Of course I’m being facetious and owe it to a bit of frustration too…
I’ve often heard people say if you’re an “ex”vegan you were never vegan at all. I just don’t know what to think about people who choose to not “know”… Maybe it’s good advice: “don’t get dragged into arguments. They’re not worth the trouble.”
Nice post. I didn’t realize Food Fight had more buttons now. I am diggin on this one: http://store.foodfightgrocery.com/vemeikifabu.html
I posted a similar comment back on the original thread but… I’ll elaborate more here.
I’ve been lacto-vegetarian since I was 16 … that’s 20 years for me. But I had 2 lapses, one when I was 20 and just starting to date (my now ex) husband and the other when I was pregnant with my son when I was 26. The first lapse happened for 2 reasons: 1) I was tired of his teasing and 2) I wasn’t strong enough in my own position yet. The second instance, being pregnant, is a whole other story. Think “Phoebe on Friends” and that really isn’t that far from the truth of what happened to me.
It’s that first lapse that has always troubled me – that I caved in under pressure & discomfort to do something I was not happy about. Every bite was like torture to me, I knew I KNEW what I was doing and yet I still did it just so that I could make someone else happy. I had always resented him for that lapse (which lasted about a year) and resented the fact that until the bitter end of our marriage 15 years later he was STILL reminding me that if I could eat meat once, I could go back to doing it again. It makes me realize that most people just don’t understand the deeper personal issues behind being vegetarian.
When I was an ex-vegetarian, though, I felt horrible about it. Not because vegetarians were pressuring me, but because *I* was pressuring me!! I talked to so many veg*ns about their diet, if they thought I could go back to being vegetarian again. The guilt was overwhelming at times, because I knew what was right. Someone explained to me you only feel guilty when you know you are acting in opposition to your own moral code. “No one” can “make” you feel guilt, only YOU can make you feel guilt.
Going vegan was my way of sealing the deal. It aligns with my practice of yoga & buddhism, ahimsa (non-harming) and taking those beliefs to point where it effects all my daily choices. That includes diet, treatment of homeless people, the woman who pisses me off at the grocery store, driving in my car, etc. etc.. My actions are an extension of my moral code. Period. There’s no argument that will convince me that racism is ok any more than there is an argument that will convince me that eating flesh is ok.
“Think ‘Phoebe on Friends’ and that really isn’t that far from the truth of what happened to me.”
You were pregnant with your brother’s children? :)
LOL! Yes, while all the rest of my friends were in London. :p
The anti-veganism characteristic of the ex-vegan’s most people are describing is telling. Becoming an ex-vegan is a reasonable option for the exceptionally selfish and egoist. However, the anti-veganism that accompanies that move suggests an over-compensation that interests me.
Why is there so much passion in the anti-vegan advocacy? I fail to see the connection between being an ex-vegan and being passionately anti-vegan because one could be the latter far more comfortably without constantly engaging in debates about veganism itself. I suspect that the reason is discomfort with their decision to become an ex-vegan; cognitive dissonance is that much more pronounced in the ex-vegan because they are familiar with veganism in general. They must convince themselves again and again and again that they made the correct choice, which manifests as irrational tirades against the absurdity of veganism and so on.
The truly comfortable ex-vegan would simply ignore the issue altogether, because that is the rational, selfish and egoistic response to social justice issues that don’t impact them directly.
** correction: “I fail to see the connection between being an ex-vegan and being passionately anti-vegan because one could be the FORMER (not latter) far more comfortably without constantly engaging in debates about veganism itself.”
It is articles like this and the attitudes of what I call raving vegans that make it so easy to go ex-vegan. Vegans in general are incredibly judgmental. So quick to froth at the mouth with rabid comments about any choice that might harm an animal. I am some kind of vegetarian (i still eat honey/bee pollen/insects) but I find the company of vegans to often times be completely draining with everyone soap boxing about their choices, and how their choices are the most correct.
I am not saying enable people, but being soft on people who do/do not make the choice, but there has to be some kinda of self-control.
The entire situation reminds me of Cipher from The Matrix. Who knew better, but wanted to go back. Why waste your effort with them? If they wish to dive back into the general population pool and shut off whatever part of them enabled them to be vegan, then move on to others.
You don’t plant seeds where they won’t grow. If you are planting seeds in a garden, then someone paves over it, you move on to other ground.
Leave them alone. Let them live with their own decisions and move on to the ones that you can. I wonder how often people do become vegan out of guilt, not compassion. Who do choose a vegan lifestyle for “fun” or the labels, or acceptance based social activism. If someone falls off the wagon, then encourage, not guilt them to get back on, however if they do not wish to ride on your wagon don’t pay them any mind, and pick up others.
So just to be clear, by “raving vegans” you mean consistent vegans. Like “raving” anti-racists, or “raving” anti-bigots. This is the implication of your argument Michaeljwjr: “judgmental” anti-racists who poke & prod the racists are “sop boxing about their choices, and how their choices are the most correct.” That is merely a logical extension of your reasoning here.
What you’ll charge in response is that racism is different than speciesism (the challenge of which underlies veganism), and therefore my analogy does not work. But then your argument becomes question begging, which is problematic.
You have two problematic assumptions in your comment. One, the number of people who will not change. And two, that, assuming your argument about those who won’t change are correct, that is reason enough to leave them alone and “move on.”
Move to a different context and apply the same reasoning: would you make the same argument as regards the oppression of gay people, or women? Or would you continue on because it is about social justice, and just because someone’s prejudice and bad habits are calcified, that doesn’t mean stop?
“Vegans in general are incredibly judgmental. So quick to froth at the mouth with rabid comments about any choice that might harm an animal. I am some kind of vegetarian (i still eat honey/bee pollen/insects) but I find the company of vegans to often times be completely draining with everyone soap boxing about their choices, and how their choices are the most correct.”
Women in generally are incredibly judgmental. So quick to froth at the mouth with rabid comments about any guy who whistles at her from across the street, grabs her crotch on the subway, slides his hand down her shirt, rapes her, or just makes generally nice comments about her tits that she gets all bent out of shape…. I find the company of many women to be too trying at times, unless they’re submissive because I don’t really enjoy hearing about how my behavior offends them.
The difference, dear poster, is that women speak out in a language that humans can understand to some extent. Animals are always mute to the oppressor. Vegans get “bent out of shape” because we hear, to some extent anyway, the animals. And maybe we could stand to be more creative, more considerate about it, but when it’s my own life I’m talking about, the next time some asshole grabs me on the subway I will not be mute — and that’s mild compared to what most non-human animals endure.
I feel reasonably sure I’ve justified your opinion of vegans, and I do apologize for coming across snotty but it was the best way I could think of to compare animal activists to feminists.
“I feel reasonably sure I’ve justified your opinion of vegans, and I do apologize for coming across snotty but it was the best way I could think of to compare animal activists to feminists.”
Yup, pretty much. Ignorant bitches like you that try to equate animals to humans. That harming an animal is just like harming a human. That eating an animal is exactly like cannibalism.
You are part of the reason it’s SO hard for people to be vegan, because when someone who doesn’t have a support network tries to act compassionately they automatically get labeled by the people around them who compare the new vegan to people like you. Who automatically get judged for not being “vegan” enough by hardcore loud-mouthed “fire and brimstone” vegans like you.
Michael? You’re done here. There’s a lot you can do here. Disagree. Criticize. Even generally be a jerk. But calling people “ignorant bitches”? Your welcome just wore out, in a big way. Spew your crap somewhere else.
Note: Apologies to everyone who saw that original “you’re” where a “your” should have been. Sooooo very embarrassing. Must remember to review sentences after editing them and before publishing. :)
Alex thank you for that wonderful example of what I am talking about. The Soap Boxing.
When I say raving vegans, I mean the ones who are constantly vocal, and constantly trying to guilt people into change, who are constantly yelling just how “green, vegan, and environmentally proper” they are.
And your comments about specism=racism is completely wrong, and I will help correct you. The argument you are trying to make, is that eating animals is like eating people. Not simply oppressing them you are trying to make it all the way to the equation that eating a cow is no different than eating a human being.
I do not have this perspective. I am a speciest, and I make no bones about it. Animals and Humans ARE different. We are the only species that can choose to live in balance with our surroundings.
Specism is YOUR perspective on this. NOT the only one. I do not equate animals with humans. I do not believe they should suffer for my benefit, but to make the judgement that eating an animal is eating a human and then trying to sell veganism to someone just won’t make sense. You are giving them the tools to deny you.
Someone choosing to go back to eating meat, is not even close to someone who is profiting from the oppression of a group in the majority of peoples views.
The Specism argument is a disservice to any movement.
Especially vegans who keep animals as pets. I mean how can you call yourself a speciest and keep a pet?
If it weren’t for people like you, it would be easier for people to switch to being vegan, and stay vegan. Instead of having to justify and constantly living up to your ideals because if they don’t they have to go through this kind of scrutiny over every choice they make.
The analogy to racism is not that “eating animals is like eating people.” You are talking past the actual argument. Speciesism is analogous to racism because BOTH assume (a priori, usually, which literally means “before looking”) that X groups interests, lives, moral value, and so on, can be discounted or not counted at all because of a biological distinction. The racist imbues “race” with this moral content, and the speciesist imbues “species” with this moral content. But logically, a biological distinction is a biological distinction, empty of moral import.
The importance of biology turns on the possession of other characteristics, such as choosing to live in balance with our surroundings (whatever that means to you?). However, since we have now moved from species matters TO that characteristic matters, many members of our own species who cannot choose to live in….are EXCLUDED from your community of moral importance. The mentally handicappped, and people who have suffered certain brain injuries, for example, cannot do that.
Your only recourse (to include these humans as well) is to return to species membership but as I have shown, speciesism is analogous to racism, and thus, it is wrong and you need to start over.
So, just to understand: someone who is “constantly vocal, and constantly trying to guilt people into change, who are constantly yelling just how” morally superior they are to the racists and sexists of the world are “Soap Boxing”? That MUST be true, or else your argument is quite clumsy Michaeljwjr.
Your argument doesn’t make sense though because race is a social construction with created biological differences, whereas species have actual biological differences.
Andi,
So, your argument is that there are NO biological differences between different races? (That will be your little secret…) What about sex? Is that a “social construction” as well? Even the most ardent postmodern critics would NEVER claim that sex qua sex or race qua race are entirely social constructions. Cite me a single piece of factual evidence for you assertion.
I must have been asleep. When did “racism” change its definition to “eating people”?
Hi Michaeljwjr,
As a Ph.D. Zoologist who specialized in evolutionary ecology, I will state something that should be obvious to us all. Humans are animals. Many of our behaviors and emotions are not unique to humans, but have been documented many times in many different parts of the evolutionary tree.
I’m not quite certain what your point is about “We are the only species that can choose to live in balance with our surroundings.” I don’t see much evidence that our species has been any better at doing this than is true of other species, as evidenced by the continued environmental damage we create even though we should know better.
I also find it troubling whenever I hear many of the statements that “humans are the only animals that (fill in the blank)” We have heard over the years that we are the only animals that use tools, can anticipate the future, are self aware, have empathy, experience guilt, modify our environment, etc. In each of these cases, it turns out that we simply either did not look for these traits in other species, or failed to figure out how to document them. In fact though, each of these statements listed above have been proven false. We might want to consider ourselves above other animals, but when it comes down to what is really important, such as our feeling and our emotions, there really isn’t any evidence that many animals do not have as rich of an emotional experience as we do. Indeed, the evolutionary need that these behaviors fulfill helps point out how logical it is that birds , mammals, and even fish should show a complex range of behaviors and emotions to better help them survive and thrive.
Peter Spendelow
Peter,
That is blasphemy!?! “Humans are animals”, humans are not “special”…you have shattered my comfortable world view. What should I do now that my solipsistic views have been dismantled. Can I go on living in a world where I am NOT #1?
As a follow-up to my previous post, for anyone who wants to follow up on the statements concerning animal behaviour, I would refer you to a great new book by my friend Jonanthan Balcombe, who is also a Ph.D. zoologist specializing in ethology. His new book is called “Second Nature: The Inner Lives of Animals”. Here is a link to his web site that describes the book:
http://jonathanbalcombe.com/books.html
I didn’t say we were not animals, I am saying that we are the only animals who can live in balance. Who can take only what we need. Who CAN. I am not saying that we do. I am saying we CAN. As someone who pretends to have a PhD I would assume you would have understood that.
Hi Michaeljwjr,
Why do you say we are the only animals who can “live in balance” or “who can take only what we need?” Do you have evidence that there is no other species of animal that can voluntarily restrict what they take from the environment so that they do not overconsume? Your statement was exactly what I was talking about – someone making a blanket statement that humans are the only species that can do something (in this case, “live in balance”) without actually looking around to see if there is any evidence about other animal species being able to do the same. Decision-making and feedback mechanisms that regulate what animals (including humans) take from the environment are really pretty common in the zoological world.
As far as your quote “pretends to have a Ph.D.”, I use my real name in posts , my Ph.D. is in Zoology from the University of Washington earned in 1985, and the little lizard that I use as my avatar is Anolis sagrei, the species I studied to test evolutionary/environmental hypotheses for my doctoral dissertation. I’m still actively involved in environmental science, although not specifically in in zoology anymore other than occasionally.
Peter Spendelow
Thanks for contributing to make these vital points, Peter.
Veganism is the opposite of what religion is. There is no having to believe in anything without evidence. Or living a life pretending to know things you don’t or can’t possibly know.
In reality…We can live healthy (if not healthier ) lives without ever eating or exploiting non humans. It’s using and eating animals that is the flawed belief system that’s been drilled into peoples heads.
An ex vegan is much more akin to someone who was living a rational, moral life based on the reality that we can effect others happiness and well being by being ethical and then switching to a belief system based on having been indocrinated into the irrational. Actually the latter description is exactly what religious belief is for people.
Thanks for an insightful post.
Thank you for your very honest and timely post, Stephanie. It has the grace and depth I have come to expect from you.
A lot of the points I would have made have been addressed already in regard to former vegans, so here’s my main contribution: I have been vegan for fifteen years and whenever one drops out – oftentimes in a very vocal, combative manner – it often gives the people who are opposed to veganism (and, um, there are a LOT of ‘em, some violently so) ammunition against us. Even though this is completely unfair, a renouncement is used as evidence to support whatever negative opinion they have developed about vegans or veganism. That it is cultish, nutrient-deprived, really INSANELY difficult, only for the extremeists. This is especially so when a former vegan uses these terms to describe why they are no longer off animal products. It is unfair that isolated examples speak for the mass of us, but that is the reality we face as we are comparatively so few in number. Many people do not know vegans personally and they take this sort of repudiation as speaking about us as a whole: as I said, this is unfair and unnuanced, but it is true. It cuts the rest of us, who are trying to do outreach as joyful, complex vegan individuals. Ultimately, it is very injurious to the animals.
Although I disagree with a lot of what Michaeljwjr said, after lo these many years as a vegan who has seen it happen time and again, I agree in a sense in that I think the most healthy thing I can do (personally and as an advocate) is shrug and realize that this individual is on a path that is very different than mine. I don’t mean that as anything other than this person is working things through and I really hope that it leads to a deeper embracing of the core values of compassionate living. I have seen it happen. Otherwise, I cannot control it. If this person is a friend, I can discuss it with him, I can challenge him, but I cannot change him. (It still bothers me, though, it’s very hard for it not to do that.) The best message I can give the rest of the world is, well, that’s very sad for the animals but he does not speak for me or any of the rest of us. I know many Christians who are good, kind people. I hear of a few who bomb clinics and behave violently. I would never take that to mean that this is proof that the Christians I know are violent and hateful.
Thank you for all you do, Stephanie…
I am a backsliding vegan right now mostly because of all the weight I have gained over past few years (various reasons, one due to menopause, other from too many carbs, ) and now trying to lose it, finding really hard since eating mostly carbs does not keep me full. I know there is protein in plants but it is hard to get alot to keep me satiated and the tofu and fake meats give me such bloating and always found it hard to eat that stuff anyway, really had to force it down. I am on 3 blood pressure pills, one for cholesterol and pre diabetic so I really need to lose the weight. REALLY surprised how I got the high cholesterol since I was not eating animal anything, but was told it is due to the fat around my middle and runs in family.
I would never be an obnoxious ex vegan or ever go back to eating alot of meat but finding it very hard to stay vegan right now. Also not having any vegan friends does not help, sucks when everyone wants to get ice cream and I am sitting there with nothing. Or being told “it is already dead anyway” which always got me thinking does me doing my small little part actually accomplishing anything anyway realistically? Am I just really making a statement and not helping animals in any REAL way?
Feel like I am leading a double life.
Hi, Lori. It sounds like you’re feeling very conflicted, and that’s understandable. As for your health issues, I’d really recommend searching around the Web (and bookstores, at least online if not in person) for information because many people have found their solutions to such health problems through a plant-based diet. Natala, who commented earlier in this thread, and her husband Matt are examples (you can visit her site at http://veganhope.com). Do a quick Google search for “vegan dietitian,” and you’ll also find the site and blogs smart, helpful people who specialize in vegan nutrition. Indeed, there are lots of resources — on the Web and via books — about the health benefits (and how to take advantage of them) of going vegan. It isn’t guaranteed that everyone is automatically or effortlessly going to lose weight by going vegan, but there are loads of health benefits if you eat right! :)
As for not having supportive friends, that can indeed be hard, I know. If you remain consistent and upfront with them about how you feel and how you live and why, maybe (likely) they will come around in time to being respectful of your decisions — and you may even influence them. In the meantime, this is one of the really fantastic things about the Web. Even if the people in your day-to-day life aren’t supportive, you can find supportive, loving community in various forums online. Have you tried connecting with people this way? Also, if you don’t mind my asking, do you live in a small town or in (or near) a larger city? If the latter, there may be local groups you can get involved with to find support and community as well.
Your “little part” does make a difference, even if it doesn’t seem like it. You can not only remove youreslf from the cycle but also then serve as an example to others, maybe helping some other people realize what you’ve realized along the way — and then those people will in turn influence people around them, and so on and so on.
Hi Lorie, when I went vegan my main concern was nutrition – I don’t know why I thought there would be detrimental side effects from going lacto-vegetarian to vegan?! But my yoga instructor gave me the simplest bit of advice: eat a rainbow. Now there are tons of books & resources (and people!) who will get into the 9-proteins and how to get them every day, more than enough to help you build a balanced diet. BUT that “eat a rainbow” advice has been the simplest way for me to do it. Every day I eat red, yellow, white, blue/purple, green. And somewhere in that mix, I get what I need without stressing.
Good luck & there are plenty of people HERE who will help you.
Hey – just a couple tips. tempeh is the lowest carb whole food vegan protein, make friends with it! i’d also recommend making a fruit smoothie in the morning, mix in some pea protein powder, flaxseeds and some greens if you want. That’ll keep you full for a long while. also, see a vegan-friendly nutritionist even if you have to travel a bit to get there.
Hi Lori,
I seemed to gain more weight when I went from vegetarian to vegan, and I am someone who eats for many more reasons than nutrition. It’s very emotional for me.
When I finally started cutting out cane sugar, molasses and beet sugar I lost one or two clothing sizes and though I haven’t lost more than that in the past 2 years or so I haven’t gained any of it back, even when I’ve “slipped” and eaten sugar on occasion.
It may require reading labels; I started by cutting out those things that were not sweet (not desserts!) that still had sugar in them: pasta sauce, bread, crackers, cereal and eventually cutting out those other things was a bit easier.
Good luck to you!!
Forgot to add – speaking of having pets, it always seemed hypocritical to serve the cats meat which I have to buy , which seems to counteract me not eating meat. I don’t believe in cats not eating meat, that one does go against nature and heard too many stories of cats getting sick being vegan. If I don’t rescue the kitties, then THAT is cruel too!
I don’t feel guilt at all in feeding my cat the diet his body is built for. Cats are NOT vegan – they need tuarine from their meat. But I CAN control where & what I buy for him. Do some research on pet foods & you’ll find one/s that work for you, too.
What’s worse: feeding cats generic cat food made from factory farmed by/waste products -or- feeding them organic free-range meat. Remember that cats naturally eat things humans would not, like bones, feathers, and organs. I am much more comfortable feeding them crap food than feeding them “organic” food that is directly responsible for animal deaths. These are both poor options so I do hope we can feed them vat meat soon.
….which is why I said “I CAN control where & what I buy for him.” We each have the freedom & capacity to decide what to feed our pets.
I don’t see why cats get a free pass. The animals they ate had rights- lives, families, desires, and futures. I could never understand how vegans could keep cats. The best thing for people to do would be to stop breeding cats as pets and shift to herbivorous animals if they are going to keep pets.
Taurine supplements are widely available if you chose to keep a violent animal as a pet.
I don’t know a single vegan who’s involved with “breeding cats as pets,” who isn’t, in contrast, unilaterally opposed to breeding and in support of TNR and similar efforts. Nor do I know any vegans who wish to “keep pets” in the sense you’re implying — for their own benefit, their own amusement. Most vegans I know do have animals in their home, but they’re animals they’ve rescued, and the cat issue is a difficult one. It is untrue that all cats can be healthy on a solely plant-based diet. And I don’t know what good can come from criticizing and guilt-tripping vegans who’ve rescued cats and who undoubtedly already struggle with the issue.
I’m sure I will always have dogs in my home, and I probably won’t ever have a cat in my home again, but there’s no way I’ll judge the advocates and vegans who do rescue cats and do their best by them, whether they can thrive on a vegan diet or not. Cats too have personalities and feelings and desire and a wish to live, and I respect the vegans who do the difficult and sometimes internally conflicting work of rescuing and caring for felines.
And to refer to cats as “violent animals,” as if they’re making a moral choice to be “violent” rather than just following a natural instinct to survive, is to tread into some pretty tricky territory. Unless your hope is to wipe out every carnivorous species from the planet (to whom we also give a “free pass”), I don’t understand the point of demonizing cats.
It’s just speciesist to say it’s OK for us to kill animals for other animals. A chicken that died for the cat was equal to the cat and we moral beings paid for its death. How many chickens have to die to support cats? From a utilitarian perspective, even if a cat doesn’t do great on a vegan diet, it’s certainly better than killing other animals. It’s not consistent.
My uncle has had vegan cats for decades. One of them just died and it was 18.
There are shades of gray here. I probably won’t ever live with cats again because I do struggle so much with how many other-animal deaths I’d possibly have to pay for to feed them, but is it not also problematic to outright kill domesticated cats or condemn them to slow, painful deaths when they can’t survive on vegan diets? Because many can’t. There are lots of stories of cats thriving on vegan diets, yes. But there are also many stories of other cats suffering terribly and dying because of attempts to keep them on an (unnatural-for-them) vegan diet. It’s not a simple, black-and-white situation.
On a semi-related note, I’d like to point out your use of “it” and “that” to refer to these animals. These are words that many people use without realizing it, and the habit is something to watch out forand work on: http://challengeoppression.com/2009/12/04/not-it-and-that-and-what-she-and-he-and-who-and-whom/
It does seem like a contradiction because you are supporting the meat industry and the killing of animals for food. I think with pets, there is a familial need to nourish them, but also to raise them as extensions of self. The rational thing to do is to NOT raise the cat vegan. But that does open up many personal questions.
If your reason for feeding the cat meat is that it is more “natural” for them you could say the same thing with humans. B12 is not naturally produced to a usable degree in the digestive system (as is the case with herbivores). B12 is “our” taurine and vegan humans are like vegan cats in this regard.
the main argument I could appreciate is that you feed your cat meat because that is what they would want/need naturally and you don’t want to force your (personal) human eating habits on an animal.
Dogs are omnivores….they like certain kinds of fruit (although grapes are bad for them) and veggies, but they love meat, they love eggs. Even wolves had been known to eat fruit in the wild. We’re more like dogs than cats and that’s why dogs can tolerate a vegan diet more, but it doesn’t mean it’s healthy for them.
the whole idea about keeping a pet is…if you think about it, contradictory with animal rights (although not with animal welfare), if you have a human friend you don’t walk them around with a leash. you don’t keep them inside your home most of the time. you don’t control what they eat. just because you’d prefer not to call it ownership, doesn’t mean it isn’t.
Stancel,
If taurine-need in cats IS analogous to B12-need in humans, then it does not follow that cats merely tolerate a vegan diet, but that they can live healthily and happily on a vegan diet if provided a taurine substitute. Like B12, non-harmful substitutes abound, including direct-sources such as sea plants and yeast, and indirect sources, such as fortified food. According to the ADA, veganism is healthy at all stages of the life cycle, so, like cats I suppose, it isn’t mere “toleration”.
Therefore, like constraining the actions of say, children, or the mentally handicapped, to “push” them into behaving according to moral norms, providing a vegan cat a taurine substitute does not raise the kind of moral question you believe it does because NEITHER the cat is being harmed nor are other animals. The only “force” involved can easily be analogized to “forcing” our children not to do X, Y, and Z.
Finally, plenty of ink has been spilled making the case against “pet” ownership IN THEORY. However, IN PRACTICE, by analogy to bringing a child into the world and thus the parent has moral obligations to care for that child, bringing a cat, for example, into the world (directly, through breeding, or indirectly through negligence), we have moral obligations to care for the animals currently in existence.
There are so many excuses for “backsliding” vegans to use. And the really convenient thing is: The 90-whatever % of Americans, who still eat meat and other animal products, will agree with them, support them, applaud them, and encourage the bejesus out of them.
“I can never be 100% cruelty-free, so why try?” Oh, of course! None of us should try to do anything then, right? Don’t rescue animals, because you can’t rescue them all. Don’t recycle, because you can’t recycle everything. Don’t volunteer at the hospital, because you’re not able to volunteer at every hospital. The list goes on, and it’s all ridiculous.
“All there is to eat are carbs.” Firstly, the carbs=fat argument is a myth. Google it. A low-carb diet can actually be very harmful to your health. Secondly, I have heard a couple people say that they would be vegetarians if they could find things to eat that aren’t carbs. I’m not sure what to say to this… I guess a list will suffice. alfalfa sprouts, asparagus, bamboo shoots, bean sprouts, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, celery, collard greens, cucumber, eggplant, lettuce, mushrooms, radishes, spinach, tomatoes, turnips, zucchini. And those are just veggies!
“I don’t like eating soy products.” Great! You don’t have to! There are a plethora of beans to eat, legumes, nuts, seeds, veggies, grains, fruits, etc.
“I don’t have any support from friends/family.” Support comes in time. You have to remember that most people around you are hearing about and meeting a vegan for the first time. They know little about it, and you are their teacher by default. Many people like to make fun of things they know little about, so it’s only natural that you get some jabbing in the beginning. Think of any other lifestyle change- The results are the same. However, with time, people get more used to the idea of veganism, and they learn more about it. Also, when real-life friends fail you, there’s always the Internet. Vegans are known for our love of the Internet. :) We’re all out here, supporting each other, venting when we need to, and getting and giving advice. It’s fantastic.
Lisa! Without the internet I wouldn’t have met all these wonderful vegans who have inspired me & supported me & now compose this wonderful community of people with blogs, books, recipes, friendship & understanding.
Word up! :)
Thanks, as always, for all the thoughtful commentary and discussion, everyone, here and on the previous thread. I don’t have the time to respond to each individual comment, but I’m reading along, and I’m glad to see the conversation.
I couldn’t comment because there was no “reply” button, but I felt your pain at the grammar mistake in the post to that jerk Michael. Don’t worry, emotions can sometimes cause even the best of us to mess up our grammar ;)
Stephanie:
Your great little essay here has been featured on the worst/best example of an obsessively anti-vegan ex-vegan’s blog. The best part is that he didn’t actually have anything to say in response. I’ve been following his blog for a while and his arguments wear thinner by the day.
http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/545747787/how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-ex-vegans
If you haven’t seen that site, I am sorry for telling you about it. His blog posts are nothing compared to the hate and ignorance spewed in the comments.
- rob
and you Rob are obsessed with the site let them eat meat. Why don’t you just go away.
hah.. “ex-vegans”
I’m starting to remember Harley Johnstone putting up with “former 811 raw vegans” which aren’t really former at all.
The man understands how it should be done.
He came up with a funny term lately.
When he sees people spouting BS and faking “I did 811 and f’ed up so badly”
well, here’s the forum thread for kicks, and I love it..:
30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/jd811-1?xg_source=activity&id=2684079%3ATopic%3A519247&page=1#comments
Yeah, these oh-so ex-vegans that judge us for being judgemental..if there are any: we are frigging hard a$$ for reasons. When we see violence, and people call it “harmony” and tell us to accept it, we call BS. And when we call BS, we call BS. If we beat around the bush in kindness at the wrong time, there are devoted “anti-vegans” who will take advantage. We want to be kind, but some won’t be. So we play hard-a$$ to defend ourselves and what we believe in. People will always try to twist, slander, lie; just to screw us over. And we’re blamed for being self-righteous? The ones who are really self-righteous are the ones who tell homosexuals to die, who tell “you ugly girls don’t deserve to get laid” “that guy is fugly and should die” BS. Calling vegans self-righteous….*pfeh* GO BLAME THE HATERS; THAT HATE ON THE HARMLESS QUALITIES OF PEOPLE!
Nobody ever considers why we call BS when BS flies at us, and we get the blame. Nobody ever considers the endless harassments that come at us, and don’t look at “why” we give people sh*t for pushing us around.
I like Harley’s personality on such, he’s direct about it, and he’s aware of what needs to be brought forth.
Hence those who did the raw vegan path or vegan path, they didn’t do it. They JUST DID (for a few hours) and f***ed themselves over, and start blaming veganism for everything.
If you keep a pet, you have no right to judge how others treat animals. Period. A vegan that keeps a pet is quite possibly the most hypocritical of all people I meet. Rescue an animal, get it back to health, and release it, but don’t keep it as a pet. Regardless of it being a herbivore.
If you keep dogs and cats what gives you the right to condemn people who use the eggs of chickens? You see this is the kinda bullshit that gives ex-Vegans the fuel to justify their choices. Judgmental hypocrites that make up the majority of the vocal vegan population.
Tell me, does it physically hurt when you stretch that far?
Vegans don’t “keep pets.” Rescuing an animal and giving him or her the best life you can, not because you want a “pet” but because that animal needs care — that’s in line with a philosophy of compassion and non-exploitation. “Rescuing” a domesticated animal from the streets or a shelter only to then release him or her back into an environment in which he or she won’t survive and instead will suffer and die? You think that is the consistent, kind choice?
And participating in a system that breeds, mutilates, and kills countless droves of hens and chicks — a choice that requires imposing suffering on and killing animals — is the same thing as rescuing and giving the best life possible to a dog or cat? Are you serious? Forgive me, but your arguments are just fucking ridiculous.
Critical thinking. I recommend it.
If you have kids that you’re subjecting to a rapidly deteriorating environment, terrible schools and virtually no job prospects when they get older, you’re a hypocrite if you’re opposed to child pornography.
You might as well give up, Michael. You talk about vegans being ranty and rude and nasty, and of all the comments here yours are the ones predominantly being rude and name-calling.
Vegans don’t “keep pets.” Oh, so all of the vegans that I know that have cat’s in their apartments, or their little dogs, they aren’t keeping them, they are rescuing them? From what? And it’s nature to release them back into the wild.
And forgive me on not being clear on the chicken analogy. I did not mean factory farm chickens, I mean free range chickens, like the ones at Rabbit Farms that aren’t kept for their flesh, but for their eggs.
And you are using the guise of “compassion” to justify your enslavement of an animal. Saying that you know what is better for an animal than it does out by itself, is the same justification that hunters use to control animal populations. The arrogance in thinking that you know what is best for an animal, and interferring in its’ natural life.
You do not see your own hypocrisy but then expect an ex-vegan to see theirs?
“And you are using the guise of “compassion” to justify your enslavement of an animal. Saying that you know what is better for an animal than it does out by itself, is the same justification that hunters use to control animal populations. The arrogance in thinking that you know what is best for an animal, and interferring in its’ natural life.”
A natural life for a domesticated animal includes humans. What the fuck do you think the word “domesticated” means?
so why can’t someone rescue a hen AND eat her eggs? what is so wrong about that? no male chicks get thrown in a grinder in that instance…no cages, they get to roam in open air and sunshine….but yet somehow eating their eggs would be cruel and speciesist.
Stancel,
Who said eating her eggs would be “cruel and speciesist”? In a theoretical vacuum, outside of our current realities where animals are property, and so on, I don’t think there is a moral issue with the scenario you presented.
My cat is a rescue cat. But he is a domestic animal – which means he is not a wild animal that would have survived on the streets. Plus, the irony in this whole argument is that cats are not wild and those on the streets are a nuisance to the wild animal population (birds, mice, etc.) so to release another domestic cat into the wild would be contributing to the overpopulation of feral cats… See the issue here?
Rescuing a cat, giving him a good home, feeding him the proper diet, etc. etc., is all in keeping with the practice of compassion & kindness toward living creatures. Setting him “free” to be run over, shot, tortured, starved, eaten by a coyote, etc., would be absolute cruelty toward a creature that was “bred” to be a domestic companion in the first place.
This seems so simple to me…
Michael: “I did not mean factory farm chickens, I mean free range chickens, like the ones at Rabbit Farms that aren’t kept for their flesh, but for their eggs. ”
Doesn’t matter what you mean, Michael. “Free range” chickens are in the exact same system. All — all — the male chicks at the hatcheries that supply “free range” farms are suffocated or ground up alive. Many “free range” hens still suffer through beak mutilation. And finally, “free range” hens still end up at the same slaughterhouses too when they stop being profitable, just like their “factory farmed” counterparts.
If you seriously think it’s compassionate and “natural” to send domesticated cats and dogs out into the so-called wild, where they won’t survive and where they’ll likely suffer terribly until dying, we don’t have much left to talk about.
Being domesticated doesn’t mean that they are incapable of survival in the wild. Dogs and cats would adapt and hunt. the small dogs would be vulnerable to predators, but packs of large dogs would have little problem.
Anyway, Michael has a good point. Eggs are not inherently cruel. you could rescue a hen and eat the eggs it pushes out. in return the hen would get your kindness and some food and shelter (when it’s rainy or cold) and would get to roam in the open sunshine and air. sounds better than some rescued dogs have it….
@Stancel, good arguments can be made for letting a rescued hen eat all or most of her own eggs. Yes, they do this, and it may seem a bit yuk to eat your own period but really why is it any worse than eating that of another species? Eating the eggs, especially when the hen’s body is still on the laying cycle left over from the battery shed (where they have their access to light effed around with just to make them think one day is actually several, to get more eggs out of them) helps her to recover some of the nutrients lost through the laying process. So since it came out of her in the first place, surely she has more claim?
@Stancel: Dogs are not adapted to the wild. Every single study on feral dogs show they cannot maintain a meaningful population without human intervention (intentional or otherwise, like with landfills). Dingoes are perhaps the only exception, and they are unique.
“And it’s nature to release them back into the wild. ”
Seriously? Domesticated dogs are not natural. They are the product of domestication, of artificial selection. Their existence is based on the whim and needs of humans. Most domestic dogs do not survive in the wild. The lifespan of feral dogs, for example, is pitifully short and, more importantly, unsustainable (exceptions include the dingo). That is, dogs cannot survive in the wild – their populations would never grow to a sustainable level. They exist because we exist (and selfishly want them to exist as well). In our absence, they would go extinct. Which isn’t the worst thing on earth, but please do not argue that dogs can live the life of a coyote or wolf in the wild. The former cannot maintain any meaningful population or normal predatory-prey dynamic, the latter can.
“A natural life for a domesticated animal includes humans. What the fuck do you think the word “domesticated” means?”
There is a difference between living with humans, and being enslaved. If your animals come and go as they please. That is different than being confined for your personal enjoyment as if you had your own personal zoo.
If you allow animals to come and go, that is different than keeping them as possessions, confining them and assuming that institutionalization, or “stockholme syndrome” is equal to happiness.
Yes and the same arguments you use to justify your enslavement of an animal, to justify your own selfish need, are the same types of arguments that ex-vegans use to go back to eating animals.
Keeping an animal is wrong. You justify it to yourself, to keep your “vegan accessory” to prove to others how compassionate you are towards animals.
Just like eating animals is wrong, but ex-vegans justify it to themselves.
Humans domesticated the animals. Humans forced the animals to become entirely dependent on us. Humans bred the animals. We have an obligation to protect them since they are here and in need of shelter, food and companionship. This is a (hopefully) temporary and imperfect solution to a problem that vegans did not cause.
Please, explain how that argument is at all similar to an ex-vegan justifying their consumption of meat.
Whoa, so are you saying that animals aren’t fit to take care of themselves?
That is a little speciest isn’t it?
If the government told you that for the rest of your life you weren’t allowed out of your house unless you had permission and an escort, you will eat what we drop off to you and decide is best, and you are free to roam around inside your home but not leave, you would be completely satisfied with that?
If your animals come and go as they please, then that is not keeping them, that is living with them. But if keep them locked up, in a yard, or in an apartment and then try to justify your hypocritical actions, then you are in fact worse than an ex-vegan, because you still call yourself compassionate.
To some how assume that cat’s lose their ability to hunt because they are living in captivity is completely ignorant.
Are you saying that all fish in aquariums must stay where they are until they die? You are supporting keeping all zoos in business instead of releasing the animals into the wild? That dogs are unable to live for themselves unless you are feeding them and taking care of them?
There is a difference between wanting affection, and having no choice.
You could just feed the dogs and cats and let them come and go as they please, but the carnage in wild animal deaths caused by them would be significant.
Some animals would survive too. Feral dogs and cats are found all over the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Dog
The Carolina Dog has been feral for hundreds of years until humans started re-capturing them. I’m sure they were happier in the wild than they were in captivity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pariah_dog
“You justify it to yourself, to keep your “vegan accessory” to prove to others how compassionate you are towards animals. ”
Hmm…. I had my cat for 8 years before I became vegan… that’s an interesting point.
And enslaved!! Wow!! If I’d known I could “enslave” my cat, I would’ve put him to work long ago. Believe me, cats are not an “enslaved” species, even the ones that live inside our homes. Want to talk about “enslaved” species, let’s move on to horses that are put to work every single day for pleasure & sport, let’s talk go back to talking about cows, pigs, chickens, sheep, turkeys, that are held in filthy lots & sheds until they are slaughtered. But my cat? Hardly falls into this same category.
My “vegan accessory” has a very cushy life, even if I do feed him organic cat food & won’t allow him to get run over on the streets of LA. Might I add my child also is not allowed to play on the streets alone… I don’t care how many feet either of my wards walk on, they have very similar rules in my house.
Your are absolutely incorrect in assuming that a cat can not survive all by itself without you. What you are doing would be if the government came and told you that because people get hit by cars, you have to stay in your home. We will feed you what we feel is the best choice, because we feel we can make better choices for you than you can for yourself.
Equating animals to children mentality, is also just as wrong. Keeping pets is animal rights abuse. Regardless of how you try to justify it. If you’re cat had free reign to come and go as he/she pleased that is one thing, but to restrict a life like that because you feel you are better suited to decide what it can or can not do is something every human would fight against.
Michaeljwjr, what you just described is called “parenting” not government control. By your reasoning, I shouldn’t have the right or responsibility to make diet, behavior, safety choices for my kid.
Yes, I AM equating petcare with childcare because *I* am the adult in the house, it is my responsibility to make the decisions for those in my care.
“Whoa, so are you saying that animals aren’t fit to take care of themselves? ”
Yes.
“That is a little speciest (sic) isn’t it? ”
No.
“Are you saying that all fish in aquariums must stay where they are until they die?”
No, in most cases they are not domesticated animals.
“You are supporting keeping all zoos in business instead of releasing the animals into the wild?”
No, in most cases they are not domesticated animals.
“That dogs are unable to live for themselves unless you are feeding them and taking care of them?”
Yes.
I missed one.
“If the government told you that for the rest of your life you weren’t allowed out of your house unless you had permission and an escort, you will eat what we drop off to you and decide is best, and you are free to roam around inside your home but not leave, you would be completely satisfied with that?”
No, I am not a domesticated animal and I do not rely on an escort for my well-being.
Here’s one for you:
Is it unethical to force a retarded person to stay with an “escort” or caregiver?
So now animals are special needs people?
Your arguments make as much sense to me as an ex-vegan’s arguments make to you. You are spinning and trying to find any reason to keep your animals locked up. To justify others keeping their animals locked up. You are just as deluded as any ex-vegan. No wonder it’s so easy for people to switch when you are an example of what it means to be vegan.
Not all animals, but yes (compared to wild animals) domesticated animals are like special needs people. They have (oftentimes against their will) adapted to be reliant on humans for food and protection.
Domesticated animals, by definition, are reliant on people. Denying them protection and safety is to deny the past 10,000 years we have spent breeding them to fit our desires. This reliance (and the room for abuse of it) is one of many reasons why vegans oppose the breeding of animals.
Ex-vegan arguments don’t make sense to me because they are illogical. You said that my arguments were similar to theirs, yet you have not explained how. You can call me deluded and resort to ad hominem attacks all you want, but your argument is factually barren.
What is the meaning of veganism? Why are people vegan? If you told somebody you were vegan what would they think that meant?
After 10 years of activism I asked myself and many, many other vegans these types of questions because I became concerned with the direction veganism and animal rights was taking. Few had answers but collectively I was able to piece together a working model. Veganism it turns out is just an action or rather non-action. It requires the non-use of animal products but to what ends? The action does nothing for the idea but what it does do is fosters an insidious dogmatism that is indeed more of a religion than anything else. Case in point: the beginning of this very blog post features an image that says “NEVER TRUST AN EX-VEGAN”. Now that should really give you pause, it did for me when I first saw it and that was one of many milestones that lead me away. What type of movement would recommend its members to shun apostates and quell inquiry? Cults, that’s who.
I know it’s scary to think veganism might be flawed but consider yourself before veganism and how wrong you think that was. You know, how you wish you could go back and shake yourself and say “go vegan!”. Well take that lesson and do it again now. Why are you vegan and what does that accomplish? That was a rhetorical question btw. I do know all too well the arguments and proposed every one. There’s something else though. Something else that’s wrong and your own defensiveness should raise a big red flag. I felt it years ago when another animal rights activist in my community posted an anti-vegan treatise called Boycott veganism and all we could do was spit ad hominem vitriol. It wasn’t until years later the words sunk in as I started to realize he was on the right track.
I’m glad to have inspired this post but I wish it wasn’t so defensive and self-righteous. I’m not sure why it seems so compelling to categorize ex-vegans. Maybe it’s an attempt to get a handle on something so nebulous but it might surprise you how off the mark you are. I highly recommend the Let Them Eat Meat blog especially for the interviews of the ex-vegans. Many of those you could probably write off with your handy-dandy categorical cheat-sheet but you’ll find some good nuggets of challenging cases. Also you might wanna be aware of the no true scotsman fallacy because it’s too easy of a shortcut to defer to and offers nothing. To meet “ex-vegans” head on and really listen is to truly think critically and challenge your own biases and assumptions. Speaking of which by the way, I never said I eat/use animals. Where do I fit in on your list(s)?
The issue isn’t so black & white and good people can be not-vegan but still contribute great strides towards ending animal oppression. I’ve concluded that if I really wanted to find the crux of the issue I needed to give up this detrimental “lifestyle” and open my mind to some creative solutions. I’m still working on that and I can’t offer any but I will raise some hell because something is wrong and we need people to think about it. When I did this in the name of veganism I was a champ but to do so against it labels me a pariah. Very well though, I came to veganism this way and I’ll leave the same.
“Speaking of which by the way, I never said I eat/use animals. Where do I fit in on your list(s)?”
Hmm. Well. I hate to break this news to you. Maybe you should sit down….
You’re a vegan.
There are very simple logical steps that would lead someone to being a vegan. They go like this:
1. Animals feel pain and can value their lives – this is supported by scientific evidence.
2. Therefore, when animals are subjected to pain or are killed, they suffer.
3. Causing unnecessary suffering is morally wrong.
4. The meat, dairy, egg, leather, fur etc industries involve causing pain and death to animals.
5. Therefore, these industries are committing acts which are morally wrong.
6. Buying and/or eating meat, dairy, eggs etc contributes to and supports the continued existence of these industries and so contributes to and supports the suffering of animals.
7. Buying and/or eating meat, dairy, eggs etc is unnecessary for my life and health.
8. Therefore I will not continue to buy and/or eat meat, dairy, eggs etc.
It couldn’t be more clear.
The ends to which this action or ‘non action’ leads is a) the arrival of less money in the coffers of the industries which cause suffering and death to animals; and b) the arrival of more money in the coffers of those industries which don’t cause suffering and death to animals. Consider the ‘don’t buy apartheid’ boycott of the 1980s – it’s the same principle. It’s about withdrawing your financial support from organisations that commit morally wrong acts, and giving it to organisations that don’t.
The ‘boycott veganism’ article you link to is just bizarre. Here are my views on it:
Firstly, it basically says that because there are so few vegans in the world, there’s no point being vegan. How is boycotting veganism going to fix that problem?
Saying that a loss in profits for the meat industry leads to animals being killed in worse ways, again – why is that an argument for boycotting veganism? How is that an argument for giving any more money to these corporations? It’s akin to saying “They’re going to die anyway, so you may as well take pleasure in their death!” and frankly it argues for aquiescing to the bullying power of global corporations – they’re in charge, so you might as well eat meat and like it. BS. I have my own money, and prefer to spend it on small companies who are producing compassionate products. My money will help those compassionate food companies to grow.
Equating veganism to forced sterilisation in China is a huge logic fail. Forced sterilisation of human beings is morally wrong because of the effects on the potential parent – their choice to reproduce is taken away – not because of the effects on the potential child (wealthy families are also bound by the one child policy in theory, so it’s not true to say that the Chinese children born would live a life of poverty and suffering). Stopping breeding animals for food however *is* about the potential offspring, who would *definitely* suffer and/or die a premature death were they to be born. So veganism, if widely implemented, would reduce suffering, because the beings who would be brought into the world purely to suffer would not exist.
On the issue that a life of suffering is not valueless, and the case study the author discusses – the author confuses a woman with a disability, and the suffering this causes, with planned and consciously perpetrated violence toward animals, and the suffering that causes. The two are not in the least bit similar. I am disabled, and I suffer physically every day, and that argument disgusts me. I would be horrified if anyone were to use my disability as a reason to justify causing pain, suffering and death to animals.
I find it quite disturbing that the author insists vegans want to ‘wipe the oppressed of the face of the planet’. Vegans certainly do not want a world devoid of animals, and many campaign strongly for the rights of wild and endangered animals whose habitats are destroyed by, among others, the meat industry. Many vegans give sanctuary to ex-factory farmed animals who would otherwise be dead. Saying vegans want to wipe animals out is pathetic, frankly. It is omnis who are so fond of animal death – in an omni world, every food animal dies prematurely. In a vegan world, food animals are given compassionate homes until they live out their natural lives, and are simply *not replaced*. There is a difference. Also, we are talking about species who have been forcibly bred over generations purely to serve human interests, who could not survive in the wild, so simply letting them go and breed among themselves is not an option.
The claim that veganism is just as bad or worse than an omni diet as regards climate change is laughable. Going vegan is one of the best things a person can do to combat climate change. Moreover there would be a lot less ‘plant based agriculture’ if the world went vegan, as an omni eats more plant matter than a vegan does (taking into account plants fed to animals). This means that however many animals die as a result of plant based agriculture, an omni diet still means more animal death than a vegan diet. The author is basically saying: “one animal died to produce your vegan dinner, so hey, you might as well eat a hundred more.” BS, again.
…and at this point, I gave up. I’ve read enough to conclude that the author of the ‘boycott veganism’ article is using illogical arguments, attacking straw vegans, using same-old-same-old omni excuses and so on, and that it is the author’s world view that is flawed, not veganism. There’s no reason to believe that the arguments would get any better later on in the piece.
It’s sad that anyone has fallen for this piece of propaganda. I’ve taken on the challenge, and read it, with an open mind – and it has utterly failed to convince me, quite the opposite in fact.
I am a vegan living in Cape Town, South Africa. I have no access to vegan pet foods. My 6 year old son is vegan (although he slips sometimes and has a piece of milk chocolate). My 13 year old son is vegetarian (but only at home), my companion animals all of whom are rescued except for our Labrador eat regular pet food and let me tell you the anguish and grief I go through each time I feed them, knowing what I am feeding them. For 9 months I made and fed our 2 dogs a home-made vegan diet. The diet consisted of store bought vitamins, lentils, Soya beans, vegetables etc. I was always concerned about this diet as I am not a dog nutritionist and when my dogs began eating each others excrement. I put them back onto a non – vegan diet. The guilt is overwhelming at times. Three cats that I have rescued and that have chosen to remain with me also get fed a non-vegan diet. My anguish over my companion animal’s foods overrides the fact that I have saved their lives.
You could always prepare your dogs’ food. I think commercial pet food is one of the worst things we’ve inflicted upon dogs and cats. Not the worst, but one of the least beneficial.
My dogs are on a home-made diet. I am transitioning them from a completely raw meat diet to one that is primarily vegan. They are opportunistic carnivore/omnivores. I weighed the pros and cons of a raw meat diet. I do believe the raw meat diet is most beneficial to DOGS, but it causes unnecessary suffering. I can purchase less cruel products but cruelty is what it is. If I can provide the dogs with a healthy, balanced diet without inflicting unnecessary suffering on others, great. So that is what we will try. The dogs aren’t picky, thankfully!
Cooking for my dogs is easy too and it doesn’t take a long time. I take 15-20 minutes to prepare 3-5 days worth of food. Plus I can eat it now too!
Rinalia, that’s what I did! For 9 months like I said in my post. At least until my dogs started showing signs of deficiencies. How long have you been feeding your dogs a home-based diet? A dogs digestive system is totally different to ours we mash our food in our mouths before swallowing it, a dog does not and therefore when preparing their food you need to make sure they have enough protein in cooked soya bean etc that will be digested and not go straight through and out of the digestive system still whole and undigested. The beans need to be soaked overnight. Cooked till soft the next day and then unlike lentils which can be mashed by hand. Soya beans…in the quantities you need to feed large dog….s have to be placed bit by bit in a food processor. I t takes me at least 5 hours a week to prepare my dogs food.
Dogs do not need a raw meat diet at all! My dogs now get half commercial and half vegan.
Believe me when I tell you that as difficult as it is to prepare vegan cat food so is it for dogs…if you are doing it correctly.
As for those so called vegan cats they were probable catching their protein without the owners knowing. I have a cat that goes ballistic for butternut and loony for lentil burgers, that does not mean she would be healthy on a vegan diet.
Neither are dogs healthy on easily made rice, lentils nor oats…it is just not enough. They also need l-carnitine and a whole host of other vitamins.
@Biddy: My older dog has been on a raw meat diet for four years. My younger dog has been on it since she was 8-weeks-old. My older dog is in superb health. It improved her digestive problems immensely and eliminated her teeth problems. Both dogs have healthy, glossy coats, and good, normal canine compostable (naturally) poop (instead of what I am now starting to see w/ a grain-heavier diet). They’ve never had deficiencies w/ the raw meat diet. I’m carefully transitioning them over to a more vegan diet, although they will still get eggs from the sanctuary and other animal products.
L-carnitine is synthesized by the body and so long as dogs have enough lysine/methionine in their diet, they should be fine.
I treat my dogs diet like my own. They get varied, appropriate feedstuff and, just like humans, they get their proper nutritional needs over time. I used to be a food nazi, but realized how silly and wasteful that is. If my dogs have deficiencies, I’ll rectify it – just like I would with myself. I’m probably more anal about my dogs’ diet than my own, but I’ve discarded the notion that I need to sit down and prepare a thorough nutritional analysis of every single meal. I know some folks who have entire spreadsheets devoted to the entire caloric and nutrient breakdown of every single food they feed. I’m comfy educating myself on the components of a healthy canine diet but not so crazed I need an entire workbook to plan a meal!
Stephanie, you missed one group of “ex-vegans” off your list: those who, for rhetorical purposes, pretend to have been a vegan.
Why would people do that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Why do you cite the “no true Scotsman” fallacy Katie? I fail to see the relevance…(X is true by definition, or unfalsifiable, but what are you talking about here?)
It seems like the most likely possibility to me, having read some of the piss-poor arguments against veganism on this thread. Anyone that has deliberately become a vegan in the past would be ashamed to wheel out such tired, specious arguments. It just isn’t credible.
I generally love your posts, Stephanie, and for the most part I agree with what you write here, but I must take exception to this line:
“But I also struggle with what I perceive to be the atmosphere in the animal rights movement that is conducive to creating ex-vegans (and ex-vegetarians).”
Just as no vegan can actually cause another person to change her mind about eating animals and their byproducts, no truly compassionate vegan will let the attitudes of other vegans deter her from sticking to what her ethics tell her is right. I agree that we need to take responsibility for how we, as activists act, but I refuse to be held responsible during some of my more radical moments (there are a number of those) for someone else’s starting to eat meat again.
Most become ex-vegans because they finally understand that being a vegan has ruined their health. Stephanie you look like a stick-person – you definitely need to put on some weight. You look very unhealthy. You’ve probably lost a lot of muscle mass.
Vegans come in all sizes & shapes. And most of us (yes, even Stephanie) enjoy great health benefits.
Why do people complain about vegans being holier-than-thou, rude, etc and then turn around and say things like “You look like a stick-person.”
Because the rules are different for non-vegans? Yeah, pretty much. So try to understand, then, when we don’t live up to the idea that vegans are perfect. I can see how such a myth may have begun, but we’re all just humans and we sometimes get fricking fed up with being expected to take the bullshit of omnivores with a smile, but when we defend ourselves or spew back we’re assholes?
*Gasp!* A meat-eater ridiculing me for how “unhealthy” I look? How original! Chew on this: I looked this way when I was subsisting on Twinkies, Pringles, hamburgers, hot dogs, bologna, and grilled cheese too. It’s genetic.
Kiss my skinny ass, Sue.
Regrettably, we live in a ‘meat happy’ world. To go vegan, we have to ‘go against the grain’ of mainstream society, and buck the social convention of ‘meat-centrism’ in eating. I think a lot of people become apostates because of their families, co-workers, etc. pressuring them, and then giving them positive feedback and affirmation when they make the choice to resume consuming animal products. There’s not usually a group of cheerleaders rah-rahing people into making vegan choices, and then patting them on the back/high fiving them when they do unfortunately.
For some things, I find myself having to make tactical compromises, such as when I get prescribed antibiotics that come in gelatin capsules. I mean, is it realistic for me to forgo taking necessary medications because of my opposition to the use of yucky, animal bone/hoof gelatin capsules? There are those who say that being absolutely, completely 100% vegan is an impossibility. This may even be true to a certain extent, but it does not make the attempt meaningless and without any discernible impact. I say, just avoid the most obvious stuff, and don’t sweat the smaller details. We should want veganism to be relatively practical, and adoptable, not virtually impossible. I for one, don’t want veganism to be regarded as a form of asceticism, in which those taking it up live, or are perceived to live a harsh, spartan, austere lifestyle. We want to get people to ‘come aboard’ not get scared off.
I tend to think that at least some of the people who give up, and become ‘ex-vegans’ are most likely people who were doing it wrong. They probably wanted to achieve 100% vegan status, and finding this to be unreachable, gave up on the project altogether. I see veganism as sort of a path, or road, and if you take the more difficult direction, you’re a lot more likely to give up and head back to meat and dairy land. I’ve been on the vegan path since 2000. And I can’t say that I’ve done it with absolute perfection. One time a former roommate had these ‘gummy’ eyeball candies, and I ate one. Another time I ate some milk chocolate. And yes, I lose some vegan points for this. But I still completely acknowledge the outrageously abominable horror of the meat-industrial complex, and the absolute necessity to utterly destroy it, my own personal failings and weaknesses notwithstanding.
“There are those who say that being absolutely, completely 100% vegan is an impossibility. This may even be true to a certain extent, but it does not make the attempt meaningless and without any discernible impact.”
Comrade, this is a great statement here. There have been times I’ve been forced to compromise when it comes to medications. I had swine flu last fall, and my choices were to be sick, get sicker, or take antibiotics & get better. As a single mom, I don’t get sick days, so how does one choose?
“I see veganism as sort of a path, or road, and if you take the more difficult direction, you’re a lot more likely to give up and head back to meat and dairy land. ”
Exactly. And we are all on DIFFERENT paths. What’s important is that we respect & support one another within the veg*n community without in-fighting which only drives a deeper wedge between all veg*ns and the non-veg’s who already view us as something outside the norm.
Wow, I never knew that vegans could be so judgmental.
I always thought if vegans were compassionate about animals, they were compassionate for people as well. Veganism is a personal choice, not a religion. As much as you say its not a religion, it is treated that way. Only those crazy religions try to convert people and immediately condemn those who chose not to stick to the plan. It is so sad that being an ex-vegan is being compared to being an ex-anti racist. If an ex-vegan is the equivalent of a racist, then a vegan is the equivalent of a white-supremist that believes there is nothing better than the categories they fall under. Close enough to the same thing, just different name, huh? There is no right or wrong. Yes, the philosophy of veganism is a beautiful one, but so is Islam or Christian philosophy. It’s beautiful until people take it too far and start bashing on eachother. That is why there is so much hate in the world. We just can’t learn to agree to disagree. How can we find justice for animals if all we do is bring eachother down? This is so sad and disappointing. It makes me sad that I was categorized as a vegan. I used to be so proud of it until now.
If your goal is to truly help and save animals, being angry and judgemental towards ex-vegans does not help your cause one bit.
The ex-vegan which you have bad-mouthed and judged will never come back into the “fold” which treated them so terribly. And non-vegans like me read these things and think you’re a bunch of wack-jobs who care more about treating animals well than their own fellow human beings.
(Just in case you’d like to hear what we think – although somehow I think you’re not interested…unless you think we can be converted…otherwise we’re damned to hell, right?)
What is an “Omni” is it short for omnivore?? I searched google did not get anything.
I am an anti-vegan but not strongly
I do agree that animals are mistreated and that there environmental issues with animal production but veganism is not the answer. In fact veganism is an ignorant answer, the opposite of what you say. A true solution to farmer cruelty would be to find more humane ways to produce animal products. If you say killing animals is cruel then you are clearly mistaken. These animals are only given life because of us. There is a dwindling population of wild cattle in the world between 5900 and 11000, and if the whole world converts to veganism then we no longer have the need for cattle thus the whole species. I am not saying that animals are not treated cruelly but veganism is not the answer someone please tell whether or not you would still be vegan if animals were treated more fairly. Second off you talk about the cruelty and mistreatment of animals when you have clearly stated that you constrict animals to diet in which they are not supposed to be on. Treat your own animals fairly before you start about other peoples or companies animals.
Lastly, I read the comments and you people have to start fighting among yourselves. Please, respect yourselves before you try to get others to respect you.
I can not change your beliefs, just like you cannot change mine, but this is my main opinion about veganism. I am not saying vegans want the extinction of animals just that it could be a potential risk to your ideals.
Thank you for your time.
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